She Judges Startups on One Thing (It’s Not Revenue)

The phrases I love is that progress is not the default for humanity. If you look at the progress of humanity for 18th centuries, most humans were living largely the same. And progress doesn't just happen naturally. There's always important founders and builders and investors behind that that make it all possible.

So, Lightseed is really big on investing in international founders. We are wherever there is exciting talent. I think so much of the venture muscle is betting on non-conensus things and you kind of look stupid for a while until you're right. And so I was like, "Okay, this is my bet that I'm going to look stupid for a while and be the only VC related person on TikTok and Instagram.

People are like, "Oh, you're an investor that has a massive audience. " Distribution is not everything for me. I've just built it as another lever for me as an individual investor. Lightseed led Composio Series A and you're a fund is our investor and now you're on the podcast.

There are so many amazing founders and companies that I get to work with on a day-to-day basis now and every single person just feels like the type of person that wants to terraform the world and and change it. Composio is one of the the many companies I feel very lucky to collaborate with and work with and see grow. Hi, Claire. Hi.

I'm so excited to be here with you. I'm so excited, too. Where are we right now? We are on Stamford's campus, uh, which is awesome.

It's a beautiful day, midsummer. Um, and I'm I'm surprised we even got such a good spot to film. Yeah, we got so so lucky. And so, what's been your most memorable class that you took of Oh, that is a good question.

I probably have two. Uh there is this famous class at Stanford that almost everyone takes called Sleep and Dreams and it's like a three-unit class. It's not super intense. Uh but you learn all about the importance of sleep.

There's even a narcoleptic dog that comes into class because the professor has one. Um so you see this little dog that gets excited on stage and then he'll suddenly fall asleep mid lecture. Um but it was just amazing. I I love that class.

um recognized the importance of sleep after that. Uh and then the second one totally out of scope for me. I had not really had any exposure to astron um astronomy or physics before that but I took an astrophysics 101 course and that was just so cool. Well, I think, you know, Stanford is very well known for STEM, but just being able to have this sort of lecture style class that really just expanded the way I thought about the universe and, you know, I talk a lot about remembering that like our problems are so in in the grander scheme of things, as much as day-to-day AI and startups and valuations and all this activity seems like the center of the universe, it's like we are just still a tiny little speck and and there's so much of it left to be explored.

And so I I love that course because I I do feel like it it really just expanded my my world view. And uh for anyone's who's applying to Stanford, what do you think they should know before they apply? It's a good question. I honestly didn't know anything going to the school.

Obviously, I had dabbled with entrepreneurship and we can go into all those little stories as well even in high school. uh and had always you know who who wouldn't fall in love with this campus. Um but I think I went I would say going into Stanford I remember my freshman year I did have a lot of very prepared peers who knew day one that they were going to go found a company or become a VC and it was just I think interesting. I had no clue what I wanted to do.

And I actually think that benefited me a lot to be able to come to a place like this where you can just play around with all of these ideas and get exposed to the universe of of opportunities and ideas. Um, and so yeah, I don't know. I guess my advice to anyone who's thinking about this sort of place is or any college for that matter is that anyone who says they know what they're doing day one of freshman year honestly doesn't. And like now looking you know retroactively looking uh more than a decade so many of my peers are not doing what they said they would um day one and and so much changes about the world about things you get interested in.

So I think not staying too rigid on on one path. And when at what point of your um university experience Stanford did you decide to become an investor? I didn't actually. So, as as I mentioned, you know, for a lot of my Stamford career, I didn't know what I wanted to do for life.

I was always very curious about a lot of subjects. Uh I I think one of the common themes was just that I was curious about the how how the world worked. And so that manifested in forms of, you know, taking really interesting fun classes like sleeping dreams or this astrophysics course. Um, but I ultimately majored in something that allowed me to take both STEM the core engineering classes as well as a mix of humanities courses around technology.

So thinking about all of this technical stuff in the broader framework of how it functioned in society and how it would impact people. So I got to take everything from design school classes to anthropology classes, sociology classes on AI, on technology. Uh, it ultimately led me my junior year, I think, to this really fun course called Bits and Atoms. It was actually on education and learning.

And I loved it because it had all these components of a maker space where you could tinker and build things, but it was really centered around building great products for people to use uh, and learn through them. And I'd always been fascinated by learning. I was always interested in neuroscience in um, in education. always fascinated almost in both how humans learn and how machines learn.

Uh but I think ultimately decided to lean more in how humans learn. It always felt like for me that education was this such an important vehicle for mobility and played such an important role in our society. I had benefited from so many different educational environments and so yeah ultimately decided to lean into that. uh still at this point didn't know what being an investor entailed.

Uh ended up doing a lot of stuff in in the education world. Uh had my background in finance and tech. So didn't really know what to do with all of that. Um ultimately ended up going to grad school where I got a scholarship to pursue a degree where I could study um education and entrepreneurship and learning science and technology.

Love that. It was kind of this mix of all the things I loved around education pedagogy around technology tinkering with things and and business as well and thinking about how startups form around these business uh around these technologies and then uh yeah I ended up getting an opportunity through multiple degrees of connection didn't know I wanted to specifically land in a venture firm but over time met a lot of people those interesting people led me to my class firm called GSV uh and they invest exclusively in edtech and workforce tech and so just felt like an amazing opportunity to get this you know 30,000 foot view into education technology business all the things that I had spent my time obsessing over and it just felt like that unique mix that I I loved. Um, but what I found is over time, uh, the subject matter that subject matter that I I continue to be excited about consistently changes. And I I still to this day, there are so many things I'm curious about in the world.

Uh, but I feel like the common theme that I've always gone back to is that I love learning. I love being challenged. I love constantly being exposed to new ideas. And this job is one of many where you can get that on a daily b basis.

So, um, yeah, I feel very lucky to be in a role where I get to to use that skill set. That's awesome. I feel like anyone who also has that similar like curiosity and always learning and like research feel like this like role would really fit them. Yeah.

And I I think venture is such an interesting space where, you know, obviously there are experts. There are so many experts I like I'm surrounded by on a daily basis and get to interact with and feel so lucky to. But I think one of the things about investing and venture is that you are constantly challenged about your worldview and have to grapple with that and update your priors and you know be a first principle as thinker. One of my favorite, you know, common quotes in the in the tech or VC world is uh strong opinions loosely held.

And I think that captures so much of the the venture ethos is you get to be in a job where you have to have conviction in a set of ideas and the way the world is going, but you constantly have to learn and expose yourself to challenge ideas that challenge that worldview. Um, and I I just love that exercise and it's been a lot of fun. I'm still learning about how all this comes together in the world. Um, and I yeah, it's just a lot of fun to be able to do that for a job.

And in terms of what was a worldview that you were challenged on when you first started out? I think it constantly changes even, you know, in our our firm uh at Lightseed on a daily basis. I see the conversations that that the team is having around how this ecosystem is shaping and it is just constantly this exercise of we've made this set of decisions how have at this moment in time fast forward one year even how has the world changed in ways that we might have predicted or not predicted what were our assumptions when we did make these investment decisions and so it's constantly that exercise I would Okay, for me personally um I I have a lot of excitement over the education space. That's why I spent the last six years as an investor in it.

I just learned so much and absorb so much about you know learning the basics of how to interact with founders, how to develop a thesis in the space, how to back them and watch companies grow and hopefully add value. And I think as much as I love the space, I think there was a lot of important lessons, there were a lot of important lessons on the number of big outcomes you could see. And so I would say that has been an interesting lesson for the last six years is yes having conviction and excitement and passion for a space but also recognizing that there is some level of this tension between the math of seeing big outcomes in the space the number of opportunities in a market. Um, and I I think right now that's kind of been why I've been so driven to play a little bit more generalist so that I can get exposure and feel a little bit less like I'm I'm on the sidelines for, you know, one of the most generational changes of this moment.

Um, that being said, you know, I still am excited about all things education. I hope to find interesting developments there. I'm It's awesome to see great entrepreneurs continue building in those spaces. Uh but I think one of the worldviews I've had to change is that you know if you are being part of this massive platform shift, you have to consistently change and update how you view even things like what are verticals to back or how do you even think about these platform shifts.

Uh you have to constantly be updating your mental model of what advantages the incumbents have over new entrance. you have to be constantly updating your your mental model of what kind of founders you want to back. I think the types of founders you would back today are very different from maybe uh you know five years ago when there was a very traditional playbook around software. Now you know with everything we're seeing everything's just completely turned upside down.

I I think what I like about it is right now, you know, I've been very lucky to have my venture career in a time when all of these things are being flipped and you are you do have to be that first principal thinker and just really I think go to the root of why you want to back a team and why you want to back a space and as opposed to, you know, going through these kind of routine playbooks that maybe uh our ecosystem or our um asset class has kind of relied on for the last 5 to 10 years. And also, so grad school, was it worth it for you? Yeah. Was it really good for you?

Like, yeah. Uh, I think it was really helpful for me to figure out what spaces I wanted to spend more time on. I think undergrad was an amazing time for me to just get exposed and exposed to and absorb as much as I could. And I think it definitely served that purpose.

But I think grad school is when I was like, "Okay, I know I'm definitely interested in a couple things. I know I like learning about businesses. I know I like new technologies. " Uh, and so being able to invest in that was ultimately what I I decided to invest my time in further.

I had you know in uh interned at a venture fund while I was on campus also worked for an accelerator so got a lot of exposure to early stage startups and incubating them so I just tried to throw myself once I had kind of figured out okay these are three sort of parameters I'd like to work with just throw myself in as many opportunities as I could um but again I think all of those parameters can consistently change and and who knows maybe in five 10 years the things I'm interested in are totally different um but it it's very fun I think grad school was an amazing one year period where I could just throw myself into new opportunities and and I think go a little bit more deeper. I've always been a big believer that you just con like you always want to be a T-shaped individual uh and you want to build a team of T-shaped individuals and that time for me at least was a great time for me to actually build a little bit more of that vertical depth um versus I think undergrad for me was an awesome time to just exposed to all things and kind of build that horizontal breath. That makes sense. So by horizontal it's more like vertical it's like you're really kind of doubling down on like this one area which was like the education like the yeah I would say like you know startups in the edtech and workforce tech world.

Uh so we invested in early stage edtech workforce tech uh productivity adjacent a lot of things at the intersection of learning and gaming of creativity and and education. Uh so you know in my time there had been involved in a lot of interesting deals ranging from uh magic school which is an AI co-pilot for educators or speak which is in the language consumer language learning space or Gizmo which is more in the study space. So very different ICPS very different business models very different products. Uh but it was really fun and and an awesome time to just I think especially since education is one of those spaces that we know are is going to be fundamentally disrupted by AI.

Um it was just really fun to to look for great founders and opportunities in the space. And is that when you started posting on Instagram and when did you I started posting not necessarily because of the kind of education tech investor day job. Um you know I had joined my last firm as an associate grew through the ranks over the course many years. um made partner which is really cool and got to you know work alongside some very amazing people.

I think about a year ago or a little over a year ago now I had just been observing the broader venture ecosystem. I've always been very interested in media. Uh have always been very creative. Uh I I think I told you this in our you know in our pre- discussion but I my I guess the first platform I ever built was on Tumblr.

I was like on the Hunger Games embarrassingly. Um so that's when I first learned about building community and and you know that was when I was like tinkering with HTML websites and building little widgets on my Hunger Games website. Um but that was my first exposure to realizing okay there's you have this ability to build digital community and that was like a very primitive version uh over the years started you know when I was at my previous firm had written a lot on a substack and grew that to a a sizable audience and then I think had always been thinking about how you reach people and build brand and build trust and build credibility but also truly offer value and so I had been very excited to see things like TVPN or Dorash's channel. These are channels that I admire and love consuming information from.

Uh, Invest Like the Best, uh, Colossus, all all of these great media assets, but I just felt like they were only really catered to the the crowd that I already knew in my day-to-day job, which is incredibly valuable. Like I think there's so much great information and there should be a fantastic media e media ecosystem for that community. At the same time I also recognize that I had a lot of friends who actually did work in tech or operators or people in university or even just my friends and famil where the future is going. And I felt on the one hand I had this very lucky you know unique window into where the world was going but then I would go home and all these people would be like I don't you know I hear the headlines but I have no sense of like what this actually means for me and I think the the VC mind in me was like okay I see a problem I see a massive white space and market opportunity.

I think I again I had always been following the ways that people in venture built audience and you know you had people like Fred Wilson who with his blog you had so many investors who had great podcasts and so for me it was just a very natural extension to be like okay the very natural evolution of this is that people start posting on short form media because that's where all the eyeballs are and I think so much of the venture muscle is betting on non-consensus things and you kind of look stupid for a while until you're right. And so I was like, "Okay, this is my bet that I'm going to look stupid for a while and be the only VC related person on TikTok and Instagram for a while. " And I was honestly like, you know, I think putting yourself out there is I I was embarrassed. I'm like a relatively private person and it's, you know, I never in my head was like I ever wanted to be an influencer of sorts.

" Um, have no expectations and yeah, started posting every single day after work. Would learned how all the editing tools. I still edit all my videos to this day. Um, and yeah, it just grew into this platform which I could have never imagined.

Um, but it it, you know, I I think with the media stuff, it has been just such an interesting exercise of putting yourself out there and putting your thoughts out there. And I've always been rewarded by putting my thoughts out there and externalizing them. And so this was just kind of another iteration of that just but in just a much more public sphere. Um, and then yeah, I guess a couple months into posting anonymously.

I never, you know, when I first started account, the reason why it's called Zoey Talks is because I didn't want to be like Claire Zhao. Okay. Um, because I was afraid to put my name to it. But maybe I should have and I should have had more conviction and put my name on it.

Um, but the name just stuck and I think people are used to it now. Um, but I think it just speaks to, you know, I think with any venture or idea, there is this step where for a while, especially if you're in a space where there aren't many peers or you're not following a playbook, you do look a little stupid for a while or you might not you might be the only one. But I think if it's in the right direction and people believe in it and gain traction, it then becomes kind of the the consensus thing to do, which I think it's been awesome to be an investor and see that play out for startups, but a little bit also just in my own venture with this see it play out with my own channel. Nice.

And I want to go back to Hunger Games. Like why first of all, why the hunger why Hunger Games? Oh my gosh, you love I was a big dystopian genre girl. Um love the Divergent series.

I or I I don't know if it's necessarily dystopian, but I I love reading. Um, and this always started from a young age, but I've always loved actually anything that it's not re rooted in reality. So, I love historical fiction. I love anything fantasy.

I love anything sci-fi. I love anything dystopian. I think because so much of my day job is thinking about the ways the current world is changing and tracking the current world world that I love being able to just tap into very far away places and settings and and uh worlds and that's kind of my my avenue for that. But yeah, Hunger Games I was obsessed with and maybe a little dystopian but I've also I think grew up in a household where sci-fi was very big.

So my dad actually collects sci-fi movie props. Um, fun fact. Yes, we have the props from like sci-fi movies. Yes.

Yeah, we have the Terminator head in our basement. Um, if you've seen Transformers, we have the All Spark as well. So, really cool. The real one like all the sets.

There's actually three sizes, but we have I think one of the the medium sizes. Uh, but the one that Shia Labuff touched uh Yeah. And and so those are those are are fun facts is that we have all these sci-fi props that sit in our basement. But yeah, I just grew up around that.

Yeah. And I think when your dad takes you to every single sci-fi movie, you just start developing this this excitement for both good and bad. And and I think that's definitely come in handy in my my day job. Okay, that's awesome.

And so in the Hunger Games, so the tributes are not just competing on survival skills, they're also competing for the favor of the capital's wealthy citizens, the sponsors. So would you say you're the sponsor? like as an investor, are you the sponsor? Are you the like the tribute or the I don't know.

I mean, I think it's very I I don't know if I can like distill it into that simple of a dynamic. Like I definitely think that there are in every partnership there are always going to be power dynamics that lead to investors that are not necessarily the best partners for a founder and a startup. I you know we've definitely heard all all of those horror stories but I also think having been in the seat of investor I would say that I have really I constantly think about this because you know when anyone asks is being a VC harder or is being an operator and founder harder I'm like for sure being a founder it is that is one of the most exciting but also bold and ambitious things you can take on and it is hard but it is extremely rewarding and I've been able to see that journey for a lot of founders. For venture, it is a totally different game and it is definitely not as hard as carrying the weight of a vision and a company and bringing that to life.

Um, and so I would say definitely feel that deeply. I I think another thing I would say is I've always been drawn to being able to add value and I've seen the ways that venture funds have been able to do that. And I think um as much as it is a little bit of like okay there is someone on one side of the table and another I actually think a lot of times I've seen very successful partnerships between the tribute and sponsor if you will um where if anything like a lot of the times they are in the same position. They're kind of working through challenges that the founder is facing together and and leaning on each other and that's really what an investor is for I think.

m. when you're like, I don't know what to do if this help me help me navigate these big difficult fuzzy issues. I think that is the sign of what an investor partner should be. And so yeah, I don't know if I can say that it's like a there's as clear lines of like someone is winning or losing or benefiting.

I think there's a reason why a lot of times in venture you have all these great stories of yes founders who are the ones who are d they are very much the driver in the driver's seat but I think coming out of it you see a lot of great relationships that come out of it because um you know by nature people in venture are in the business of making sure that the right teams get the capital and the fuel and the fire that they need to realize those visions and so I think of it as as hopefully more of a team effort and if it isn't, you know, I recognize that, you know, there there's a whole market out there and there's all these different players and so it's probably not as commonplace as it as it needs to be, but um that is what I hope to be uh the energy that that me and you know uh for the people in my firm put out. Would you say there's like a lot more founders than there are investors? For sure. Yeah.

Um yeah, a lot I would say. Yeah. A lot more founders than investors. Yeah.

And but I think that's a great dynamic. I think you that's a sign of a really healthy ecosystem. Yeah. Yeah.

Because you want great people who have great minds to be tackling the world's biggest problems. I think if everyone was sitting around, you know, just thinking about where they could create value and get upside then that would be a very different society that we would have. Like I love that there are so many people thinking about building and starting things and trying and you know I I think that's like a sign of a really exciting moment and we have that I think right now. Yeah.

A content question. What's something that you think would perform that you would refuse to post? I remember when I first started doing social media, I maybe it was just me being stubborn and I probably shouldn't got should have gotten over this, but I was like, okay, I have all of the technically the credentials and I've seen, you know, I' I am a studier of content and I've seen people lead with the I'm a blah and that's why you should listen to me or I'm your blah blah blah and I have 10 years of experience here and that's why you should listen to me. And you know, when I was first starting, I had a lot of people come ask me, oh, why don't you just lead with like, hey, I you're you're Claire, you're a partner at this venture fund, and you've been at you you've done actual deals and you have you've done all the panels and the awards and all that.

Um, and this is by no means me saying that like I have accomplished many things in this space because I feel like there is still so much for me to learn. But I think for a lot of people they were like oh you you have enough to you know credibility to have thoughts in this space and I was like I do but I think I at the same time I'm using this as a mechanism for learning and it wouldn't feel right to me if I just came on here and I was like I know everything and that's why all of you people in tech or sort of should listen to me. Um and I think another thing that's always been core to my ethos is like leading with the work. And so I've never wanted to just be like, hey, I am this person that plays this fancy role, therefore you should join these three startups and this is where how the world is going to be.

I think I've always tried to lead with the knowledge itself and be like here are three startups and here is how I think the world is shaping to be, but let me just hand you the facts. And I I actually never try to and you know I think I I'm not going to say I never because there always no nevers but I I do I try to not push very strong viewpoints of this is how I think anyone should believe. I try to just present the facts and make it digestible so that people can land in their own um with with their own conviction in in whatever direction they decide. Um, and so yeah, I've always tried to lead more with the content first.

And I want people to follow me, not because I have some fancy title in some, you know, in in a prestigious role, but because I've actually been able to offer you value and that you've been able to learn something and that you want to keep up because or or follow along for the journey where I also learn alongside everyone because I I think that's just a better way of transferring information. I think it makes the journey much more interesting that people are there with you because you've given them insights rather than them following you because you are this character in their head or or some aspirational figure. Yeah. No, I like that.

I like how you put it. And has your audience ever changed an investment decision, seen something about a product that the partners didn't? I think I wouldn't say I was like the first person. I I was definitely not the first person ring the alarm bells on on AI not necessarily being the most loved product.

But I think having a real time platform that I could see how people you know in consumer sentiment on certain technologies is really really helpful and so I think that had helped me a lot. I would say it would be interesting talking about the same things on X and then talking about them on Instagram and talking about Tik Tok and getting wildly different reactions and I think that has actually helped me a lot as an investor and it's almost like humbling in some ways that you know I think you assume that everyone in I I think our ecosystem tends to think that everyone is as excited about the future as we are and I think you have to be if you are in tech in startups like naturally you have a bias towards an optimistic view of the future. I don't think he would be working in this these spaces. But I think it was helpful for you know humbling in many ways to be like okay your viewpoint is not consensus and when you think about the diffusion of these technologies as much as you are excited about everything happening at the frontier and the rise of all these technologies ultimately what creates value is diffusion of it and getting it to actual users.

And so if a portion of those actual users is not as excited as you think, I think that changes your calculus of like what succeeds. I think especially because I've always been biased towards investing in things that touch consumers as end users, whether that be in consumer applications or in verticaliz solutions like solutions that reach people uh in their work. I've liked having a sense of how people are feeling about technologies because ultimately yes it is about the technology it is about the benchmarks and it is about uh cool product but ultimately all of that can be awesome and tick all the boxes but if it doesn't really resonate with someone who wants to use it or someone who wants to pay for it then what is the purpose and so I think that's always been been a helpful superpower of being able lean into that and being able to just make sure that I'm constantly also investing with the mindset that I have access to a whole world beyond Silicon Valley and a sense of how people are interacting with these technologies. And what kind of wild reactions do you get on like Tik Tok on Instagram compared to like like X and everything?

What are all those wild reactions? I think maybe it's just my algorithm and uh my feed, but there are a lot of people in venture and tech on Twitter and so it feels like the baseline of people who are excited about AI is I don't think you would be hanging out there if you weren't excited about AI and tech. Um I would say Instagram is naturally a little bit more of like a older crowd and then Tik Tok is where you get a lot of younger audiences. A mix actually.

I wouldn't say they're similar, but I would say in an Instagram maybe a slightly older um Facebook which I crossost to which is also actually really interesting and you know I like I wouldn't you know turn a blind eye to to Facebook just because it's like the boomer platform but it's it's an important again important space like if you are investing in technologies like you want to be understanding and getting as many data points from as many platforms as possible. So it's important me to get that. Um, and so yeah, I I think seeing, for example, if I talked about a really cool AI development on Instagram, maybe it was a mixed reaction on Tik Tok would be a negative reaction. On YouTube, also mixed.

Sometimes leaning negative depends on how your video travels through algorithm. And then obviously on X, it was all excitement. So it'd be interesting, I think, see wildly different reactions. And it's also been helpful for me to I think a lot of creators tend to stick to one platform.

And I've liked being able to even though it might not be the smartest thing to do to be cross-osting and not necessarily optimizing for one platform for, you know, to get a massive amount of followers in one platform. I think what's been I've cared more about like the distribution and the variety of people I'm reaching because that's I've always thought of the content again in service of my investing. I've never I didn't set out to do content to necessarily build a platform for me. I really start set out to do content because I thought it would be an important mechanism um in service of deal flow in service of investing in service of updating my worldviews.

Yeah, I was going to say like it makes you a better investor like that's what like helps you stand out and that's your superpower because I hope so. Yes. And we'll see and and you know I think sometimes maybe I at the same time like to the point of you know strong opinions loosely held maybe it is you don't want consensus influencing you all the time. Maybe you do want to invest in the weirder spaces and invest in the less traditional thinking because that's how the world changes, right?

Is if we spent all our time and reacting to how the the collective feedback like we wouldn't create any new technologies because new technologies are created by the fundamental belief that like what we are doing today is wrong and we need a new solution. Oh, so I think it is a little bit of like a tension of like I hope that I can learn from my audience and learn from the collective and that informs me not investing in things that have no meaning or value to real people. But at the same time, I also want to make sure that I'm pushing myself to not let the consensus become my belief either and that I'm constantly pushing myself to look into those spaces where there are problems to be solved and solutions to be made. Um and that you know we don't take today as the default.

Um you know I think one of the the phrases I love is that progress is not the default for humanity. I did a really help a really fun session with one of our partners Robbie Raj on the frontier and if you look at the progress of humanity for 18 centuries uh most humans were living largely the same. um like you know someone living in the Roman era to the 1600s 1700s largely the same and then you had this massive inflection point in after an industrial revolution and so I think it's reminding myself of that too that progress is we can't take progress for granted progress is built by these inflection points these technologies these platform shifts like oil and automobiles like electricity like um you know new forms of energy like AI and these are all platform shifts and and we need the kind of capital structures to invest in those founders so that we can hopefully bring forth some of the most exciting change that we as a society will see. But but again like that is not necessarily the default and progress doesn't just happen naturally.

There's always important founders and builders and investors behind that that make it all possible. Progress is not a default. That's very interesting because I would assume like progress was a default because like obviously we're going to yeah things get better but yeah and I think it's a really good reminder that like the world is shaped by people who believe that today is not the default. We don't have to stay with you know just because we have these issues doesn't mean we can't innovate in these states.

And I think you're seeing a lot of founder activity in traditional spaces where for a long time you've been told that this you know manufacturing industrials energy space uh these are all default and that there's no way to change them because they're these big hard problems. But I think what's exciting is like in this moment as you have things like AI we're quite literally discovering new materials. we're potentially creating like personalized end of one drugs and it's just I I think it's a phenomenal time to be alive and to be part of it and yeah I think just reminding ourselves that this is the only way we get to all of these exciting end points is or hopefully not end points but like stages in our humanity's progress is through people who believe that they can you know terraform the world to to their beliefs. Oh, well said, Claire.

So, you're betting that today's followers become tomorrow's founders. So, you're like your followers or to like to become tomorrow's founders. And yeah, so I think just being able to see the power of the platform. Um, you know, again, when I was first starting out, I just had to believe that like yes, if you get volume, there is power in volume no matter what.

And I've seen the benefits of that. For example, with a portfolio company, if they are hiring, I will put a JD out uh and that convert into 30,000 views and 700 complete applications. And so, you know, in my head, I'm like, wow, I put this out to 30,000 people and 700 people maybe with the help of AI completed it. But it it was just like, okay, this is a very real way to add value.

Um, questionable if you know the quality. I'm not going to say that all 700 of those people are the most magnificent candidates, but there is, again, if you think about the world as like being made up of T-shaped individuals and T-shaped opportunities, you want both volume, volume, depth, and depth. Um, and so I've definitely benefited from that. It's gotten me introductions to amazing founders when I, you know, in ways that are non-transactional.

I think one of my what I've loved about creating this platform is I now have a very non-transactional way of getting in front of awesome people because I will post about something and maybe the founder who is the the subject of this video it's like oh my gosh I love the way you talked about this I'd love to jam more or I talk about a specific theme and then all these great founders or operators are like oh I've been thinking about this space in this way or I've been tinkering with this check it out and so I've in that sense I've love that because it's like Okay, I've put something out into world. I've added value first and people have resonated with it and that's why they're reaching out as opposed to being like, "Oh, hello. I'm investor. " And so, I like being able to have that that touch point with people in the ecosystem.

It feels a lot more like that partnership building that I would, you know, I I strive for. Um, and yeah, it's it's a lot of fun. think still you know I I think to what I mentioned earlier around you know both breadth and depth I am very cleareyed that like the I don't believe that distribution is everything I think it is an important lever I think it is an important part I think that if you are only focused on distribution and you say I'm going to invest in great founders off of just pure distribution I don't think that is that's not how I would approach it actually I've always viewed it as just another lever that for example a fund like Lightseed can can use, right? And if you are a fund that has help in platform in introductions from the business development side and helping with talent, then of course distribution is a very natural lever that you can help pull for your portfolio companies.

And so for me, I've always viewed that audience building as a door opener, but it is not the closer by any means. Like I use it as a way to get in front of people and hopefully build a connection with people and show up on their feed for three years before our first meeting. Yes. Yes.

Yes. And then hopefully when I do get to that meeting, I can offer value. And the reason why they want to partner with me is not because I have a massive following, but because they know that I've come in with a prepared mind, that I care about this subject matter, that I care about them as people, and that's why they want to partner with me. And so I think I'm pretty self-aware that like distribution is not everything for me.

I've just built it as another lever for me as an individual investor, but hopefully that lever that, you know, we can continue to use for lights platform as well. That's a really good take because I feel like I've heard people say distribution is everything. I even have a sweater that says distribution is everything. I know.

It's kind of funny. I um I I feel like people are like, "Oh, you're the you're an investor that has a massive audience. " And I I feel like I was early to believing that you could build distribution in this these specific platforms, but I also recognize that like I think so many things are just so much more multi-dimensional. And the way you show up as an investor cannot just be like here's a bunch of followers.

It also has to be coming in again with that desire to learn, coming in with that desire to be a good partner and adding values in so many ways. And and for me, distribution just has been one of the superpowers that I can lean on, but it's not everything. Yeah, love that. What kind of things do you do to other things do you do to support lights portfolio companies?

It's so fun because I there's just there are so many amazing founders and companies that I get to work with on a day-to-day basis now. And every single person just feels like the type of person that wants to terraform the world and and change it, right? Yeah. And it's just inspiring to be able to be surrounded by folks like that who don't again take that that progress is believe that progress is the default and they're the ones changing it.

Uh I think there's a lot of different ways we as a firm show up as you know Lightseed has built this massive platform. There are an amazing set of investors that I get to be in the room with, get to learn from and invest alongside and those are amazing people who are constantly thinking about where the world is going. So that is an amazing group of people to have as as the person you want on your cap table. But as part of the light seat platform, there's also an amazing platform team that is so thoughtful about introductions about where they can add value even in helping you secure GPUs.

Like we even have a a bunch of teammates who are spending time thinking tracking GPU prices for our portfolio companies. Uh we have you know teammates who are building internal tooling for portfolio companies obviously on hiring and then for marketing. There's just so much that we hopefully um can add value in in you know being able to elevate important conversations with these people. uh but also beyond that helping them figure out their narrative.

I think there's a lot of chatter right now around what is the mo in the age of AI if cost of creation is zero if AGI builds everything is the only thing that matters marketing I think I I don't know about that but I do think there is a lot of value in being able to tell your story and and shape narratives I've always thought of venture as a very narrative driven job you know your job is literally to storytell your job is to storyt tell why you should partner with me. Your job is a storytell, why this platform. Your job is a storytellers and your LPs that this is the space that is exciting and my vision of the future is probably the one that we think is going to be right. And so yes, as much as so much of the work is the substance and operations and execution and technical diligence and founders and there's so much that goes into that, I don't want to undervalue that.

I do think there is an important part of also recognizing that narratives are really important in this industry and that you know there's a reason why five founders can go after the same exact space, same exact playbook for going after it and strategy to go after it and yet one founder is able to sell that vision not only to potential investors and raise capital but also to potential employees. As a founder, you're selling your vision too to you're selling your vision because you want to raise capital for it, but you're also selling your vision because you want to galvanize a group of people to work with you and take a bet on you and take a bet on this space. And so for me, I feel like that's where I've also really tried to lean in is I have a sense of how a lot of people are thinking about technology and their ways of digesting what's happening in the world. And hopefully the ways that I can lean in with portfolio companies is helping tell their stories in these digestible ways and helping them even the founders themselves shape their narratives and think about building a presence and think about the role that they want to play in this you know very fastm moving exciting space.

What's the most recent startup you helped uh um with like yeah narrate kind of support or there's a company in our space that is founded by I don't want to name the specific one but they're they're an awesome set of founders uh and you know XPHDs have been in the space tackling the space for a very long time and uh I think a really fun opportunity we have to collaborate with each other on is to think about now that we are entering this like AI moment and there are so much so many narratives around AI and what kinds of founders win in this moment just helping them figure out what they want to represent in space. So it's a lot of just even learnings from building a brand as a person and and taking that to not only lifetime but also taking that to portfolio companies and helping them think through that exercise. I don't have all the answers, but I think what I do have a sense of is the ingredients one needs to help a story translate well. And hopefully I can can help with some of that with our companies.

What's the number one ingredient? I think again I'm optimizing for different things because I think if you asked me to just pure optimize for numbers and views and followers, I would have done a very different thing. I would not have grown or created the platform that I have. Um I think there are a lot of way better hacks to like fast track growing and getting certain numbers like you said with the hooks like you said with some things you probably would Yeah.

Yeah. And I I mean I see this like I think it's part of the content creation world now is like sometimes the playbook is to rage bait or clickbait or like Mr. Beast content, you know? Yeah.

And I think that's great and I think it serves a purpose and it's very smart like the people behind these put a lot of thought into it and it's not just aha I want to you know drive a lot of views. There's there's a reason why there's also a power law in creators and influencers and brand builders too and why some people have insane following and some don't. And so I recognize all of that work and and that is something I've like learned to really admire from so many creators. Um, but I think for me, yeah, I've never really tried to optimize for as much for that.

Obviously, it is helpful to, you know, know like, okay, I'm getting this amount of views because the story is clicking. And I think that's, you know, I I can't I'm not going to say that that doesn't matter. Um, but I think one of the biggest ingredients for me has always just been substance and value. I've always right from the bat when I started posting content was just like I am not going to be I well maybe I am but I haven't tried it yet but I'm not going to be an interesting person to watch dance or like you know do makeup tutorials even though I love those things and I watch a lot of that content it's highly entertaining for me but I think where I leaned in on was like okay I know the value I can add into the world right now is helping people demystify the techn these technologies and helping people make sense of the space.

So, let me lean into that. And I think I've tried to bring that ethos to, you know, all the other types of content we're working on at Lightseed 2 is leading first with value and substance as opposed to just noise for the sake of noise. Like I myself am also international. So, I grew up in Hong Kong, but I was born in Singapore, lived a little bit of time in Tokyo, ended up coming to the US for high school, uh, and then have spent my a lot of my my career in in New York.

And so, yeah, I think when you're again someone who is excited about changing the world, you go to where things are happening. And right now, SF is one of those places. So, I'm I'm all for it. It's exciting and it's awesome.

So you talk to would you say you talk to more uh yeah more regular people about AI than maybe anyone in venture? Maybe I I do think you know I almost it's kind of funny because I will get questions from other folks in Silicon Valley who are like so you reach like the mainstream and I'm like yes and and sometimes I'm like I can't tell if that's like a good thing or a bad thing because it's like oh you don't reach only founders which I think I constantly challenge myself you know from a investing and deal flow standoint point certainly like if you are optimizing for that it is important to get in front of just the founder crowd but I don't know I've always been of the belief that like again if you want to build non-transactional relationships you have to start when people are even pre-founders and that means going to them when they're mainstream and that means extending the brand even to operators who work at these companies or people in college or people who are thinking about starting something and I think you can't move in the way where you're only targeting. Yes, I think there's we want to move in a way where you are optimizing for high quality people, but I also think and not to say that the mainstream is not high quality people, but like I understand if you are a venture fund, you only have a couple hours in a day. Of course, you're going to optimize your time for people who have the most tangible ROI to your work, and that will probably be founders.

But I think for me, I've always viewed this platform as like an extension of myself. And in my day-to-day job, that's also things that I'm optimizing for. But it is very helpful to have that breadth and to have this kind of top of funnel and to think about nurturing the ecosystem. And so I've always viewed it more as like how do I build a way to build a relationship with people who are not necessarily useful to me right now, but I want to still be able to add value to them.

And I think we you you just can't operate in this space where you are leading first. So what can you offer me? You're a founder. Uh you know I want to put capital into your company.

I think you need or at least I've tried to lead with more okay there are plenty of interesting people in the world who are thinking about interesting things who care about the space. How do I help them navigate it? How do I help them feel like they can be part of this? and how do I make sure that they are are feeling like part of this exciting moment?

Um, and and so that's always been my mindset. Um, you know, I think there's still a lot to to be proven out, but for me, I'm I'm excited to have a bunch of people who I can share my thoughts of and learn alongside. You know, I I don't claim to know everything. I'm not an expert in anything for that matter, but I love being able to learn in real time and learn in public and even embarrass myself in public.

Yeah. And that makes you so much more approachable as an investor, too. So, what's the most common wrong belief about AI in your comment section right now? I think this has been a pretty drawn out I I think there's a lot of active discussion about this right now, which is really good.

Maybe six months ago, a year ago, I wouldn't have said that there was enough discussion about this. But I do think there is a massive discrepancy in the ways that we are seeing the future and the vision that a lot of AI frontier firms are sharing and what real people are feeling on the ground. Uh Jasmine Sun has this really great piece on data centers, for example. I think that's a really great example of, you know, I think there is a level of general consumer education where yes, there's been a lot of misinformation about the water usage of these things and not necessarily contextualizing it to golf courses or the almond industry, right?

As like water is not as big of an issue as we think. Um, that being said, there is are still a lot of issues and like I'm not ignoring those, but I think that's one example of where there has been a lot of misinformation on the internet. I think a lot of people in our industry don't necessarily do a great job of making very tangible like why data center equals something beneficial for you. I think if you are a regular person who has never rarely interacts with AI, you've only started hearing about chatbt and you haven't heard of like what Grock, cursor, claude even are, then you just see this massive steel box pop up in your your neighborhood.

And of course it's jarring and it's confusing and it's I think this tension of oh I'm hearing all these leaders say well this will be good for you but not actually making that very tangible for me. And so I think putting myself in those shoes and and recognizing that multiple things can be true at once like I can believe I believe in the excitement and future that these technologies will unlock and I'm excited for people building it. I'm excited to for people to benefit from it. I'm excited to I myself benefit from it.

But at the same time, I don't think you can it can also be true that we are doing a really bad job in communicating and feeling and making sure that people feel like they are part of this exciting journey. I think there are also a lot of compounding forces too. You know, one of the things I always say is that AI is a force multiplier and it is it just compounds existing problems. And so when I think about issues around metacognition and cognitive offloading, the idea that people are now relying on AI to think, I think that's a real issue, but I also think it's also partially a social media issue.

And it's like a compounding evolution of the issues that short form and social media, maybe I'm contributing to it, have set in place and existing kind of societal factors. And so I don't have solutions and answers, but I think what I do know is there is a narrative problem and and hopefully I'm playing my little part in not necessarily I don't you know maybe I am part of the cult and I am trying to spread spread my beliefs but I I hope I am doing my part in delivering what I believe to be wellressearched information and nuanced takes that people whether or not you are pro AAI or anti-AI you can see some value in and that hopefully this is a a source that is nuance where you can draw information from rather than I think leaning on these very more clickbait rage bait um headlines that that tend to travel further. Yeah. So you're big on consumer products.

What's like the wrong belief about consumers and your partner meetings? I actually think I've learned so much from our team. I've only been with our team for 3 months, so a lot of it is still me getting a sense of like how our team thinks and spaces we're excited about. I wouldn't say there's anything that I've been like, "Oh, wow.

" Um, but yeah, I think what's been nice about being at a place like Lightseed is again you every single meeting people come in prepared to challenge their own views. I don't think I've ever been in a meeting where someone has said this is the way the world is going to be and that's fine to say and we have to do this. more often than not I am in rooms where I am learning and I am changing that mental model and so I think in both you know our infrastructure meetings or apps meetings or consumer meetings I've had that that environment where I actually I don't think I've encountered at least feeling like I needed to challenge any one worldview and can you like visualize for me like what this a partner meeting looks like are you all sharing are you all like you guys all have a problem and you come back to it and you share like which startups you want to invest in or how does it work? How does a partner meeting work?

Uh it varies and I think there's a lot of you know sub meetings. Uh it is I I would say at a high level a place where the firm gets to share their ideas. Like I what I've always admired about and why I felt so such a so much excitement to join a place like Lightseed is that this is a place where people love learning and love being collaborative. you know, we show up as one light speeded.

And so there is no one person that is a a individual star, but rather that the the collective insights that this firm builds together make us all smarter, makes us all better at our jobs. And so, yeah, a lot of that space time, and time is used for for that. Um, you know, we'll have guests, which is really cool. We'll have uh I'm I'm not going to name specific names, but we'll have amazing experts that like I in a hundred years would have never imagined being on the same Zoom call with and it's just awesome to be able to like talk to operators.

And I think what I've loved is we actually spend a lot of time learning from each other, but we also spend a lot of time learning from people we've invested in, learning from people who are actually operating on the ground. And I I love that because I I think again if you are in the business of figuring out where the world is going, it is helpful to have all these data points whether that be on my end how I feel about getting data points from the mainstream audience that I built uh or operators on the ground or great founders or researchers like I think doing getting to the ground truth of what's happening in this ecosystem and making sure that you have as much surface area and data points as possible. I am really curious about how the world works. I don't I still don't know how so many things work and I love being at a place where I get endless ability to do that and talk to smart people and to be able to explore all these spaces that I'm curious about.

So I do know that I do know that I like storytelling. I like playing translator for a lot of different parts of the ecosystem. I like helping people make sense of more technical spaces. And so I think and then I think the third part is I know I like partnering with really inspiring people who care deeply who want to learn also and who want to change the world and believe that there are better things out there.

And so I don't know what the shape of that looks like and you know I can't claim to know even what that looks like in five years or 10 years or what I'll be doing in 30 years or what the world will look like then. But I think as long as those three things hold true and right now I feel so lucky that I get to do all of that um at a place like where I get to partner with great founders and invest in them. I get to consistently learn from our portfolio, from my team, from people in this ecosystem. Um and I get to do a lot of storytelling and help figure out what kinds of stories travel through the states.

I I just feel like yeah, it's a it's a really awesome time and job and still figuring everything out, but um it's a lot of fun to be part of it. So, when Lightseed reviews like the media bet, like what numbers are they looking at? I actually think there hasn't ever been a, you know, I do think numbers obviously are the most quantifiable way to measure anything, but I actually think similar to how I approach my content to what we were discussing earlier, I've never been one to just purely optimize for numbers because if you were in the business of again helping your company storytell, if you are in the business of extending your brand, I think yes, you can quantifi make them quantifiable. with impressions, with number of followers, with people reached, comments, shares.

I think those are all important metrics and I've always been a very metric oriented person. And it's the reason why I actually think um to go on side note like I do think the reason I was able you asked me on ingredients of success now that I think about it I will say one of the reasons why I think I grew relatively quickly unexpectedly uh was that I really took a very operationalized product mindset to building this channel. Uh I used every single video as a way to learn something new. So I you know I was doing these videos after work and I was learning how to film.

I was learning about angles. I was learning about cover images. I was learning about fonts, where to put those fonts. I was learning about what images resonated.

And each one of those was, I think, of like a lesson in that I treated each of those videos as, okay, I'm going to AB test something today. I'm going to experiment with this. I'm going to experiment with this format. And I do think that's how I got to the the template or kind of storytelling style that I have today.

And it's because of, you know, three months of like constant iteration. And so I would say that was like an important ingredient if you will to my growth and it was sort of being maniacal about the numbers and tweaking one cover image to see how that would lead to better numbers or and and whatnot. Um, but I would say kind of back to my original point is I think yes, there are always going to be KPIs and metrics that you can measure around views and followers, but I also think this job and what I signed up for and what I think the team brought me in for was not just a a numbers game, but rather how can we think deeply about building media for a firm like where you have so many amazing smart humble frankly quite nerdy in the best ways people and who are so humble that they often don't externalize their their ideas that how do you take all of that and make it digestible and accessible for a lot of prefounders and a lot of people who are interested in tech such that lights becomes this place where they also get excited about technology and feel like there's a place where they can also learn and and think about the future and in the sort of open sourcing and and building in public like that's our avenue for that and so I don't know if all of those things can be quantifiable. I think again you could try to measure in how many founders that converts into or how many operators you reach but I I think to the idea that if you are moving earlier and earlier and we are in the business of not being transactional with people in the ecosystem everyone is of value to us whether they are a founder today or a founder in three years or an operator who never becomes a founder they will still add value to this important arc that we're on and so yeah I I Think in that sense I don't know if I would put a hard number on that part.

Yeah. And if you could see only one metric of a startup before investing which one how would you Yeah. Oh that is so hard because every business is so different. Okay.

Yeah. So tell me about the different businesses and where for this business what would you measure? or what would you look at or I think it's tough because it ultimately I would say the the kind of parameters or or vectors that you're working with are like type of business like what sector are they playing in and then the stage right because I think I wouldn't necessarily compare numbers from a seed startup that is just figuring out stuff out to a more later stage proven out idea. I think there are different ones.

I would say underratedly one of the biggest problems for early stage startups is hiring and so yes there's a lot that you can look at in revenue retention although that's really important I think things like retention probably matter a little more for your pure play consumer product but I actually think hiring like I don't maybe the metric is like how many your conversion rate from candidate to closing someone and I say that Because maybe back to the thing that we were discussing around narratives and founders, I think so much of the founder journey is lonely and it is difficult. Even if you have a set of amazing co-founders, you are quite literally changing the world. And so, how do you get a bunch of people to also believe that vision and join you and walk away from the things that they were doing before and maybe make a little bit less and take a bet on you and take a bet on your vision of the world and take a bet on this team. I think that's a really important quality and a really important signal of a great team.

And so, I would look at that. I think that being said, caveing that, I also think there are people who can do a lot of the storytelling that can hire very well, but maybe not have the substance to it. And so, I would say that's like an important underrated factor is like how well you can hire, but also I think underneath that all the usual metrics matter around actual revenue, actual contracts, actual users, retention, are people coming back? Um, so I know that's not a great answer of like just one, but I would say I'll give you an underrated one and not necessarily just the one.

Yeah, that's very underrated. I actually haven't heard anyone say that, so that's really good. Three more questions. Okay.

When I we were like thinking about locations, one of the options was fencing. Yeah. Fencing um place. Um there's one on campus.

And so what does fencing mean to you? Were you like you were fencing? Yeah, I was a fencer. I was on the fencing team.

Uh, so I was a D1 athlete, but I was not very I mean I was I was good, but compared to a lot of my teammates, I had Olympian, silver medalist, gold medalists on my team. So you can imagine I was in a space where there were so many people way better than me. But I love that. Um, and I can also speak a little bit to that.

Yeah. But uh, yeah, I started fencing when I was pretty young. It actually I think all started at one of the Beijing Olympics actually. My I had played volleyball, done track, and then my mother was looking at interesting sports.

We were watching fencing. I was like, "Oh, this is so boring. People were just poking each other with sticks, and she's like, "No, look at it. " And you know, at the time, I was so young and I was like, "I don't want to play physical chess.

" uh and somehow I mean she forced at in the beginning forced me into it but I actually started falling in love with it because I think it has so many ingredients of an amazing sport and challenge. I think one part that you know was is it is a very individual sport and so every single decision is is yours to make. I think it's kind of like tennis or or bad or have these racket sports in that way where you know that every single mistake you make on the strip is also yours but every win you make is also yours and so it's a little bit of a mental roller coaster and in that sense I think you learn a lot about being able to restart um these matches go by very quickly so I was on the saber team which is I would say there there are three categories there's foil ep saber foil is like the one where you poke only on the tor torso. Epe is you can poke but anywhere in the body.

So even the toes, even the hands, helmet, anywhere. And then saber is waist up. So uh you can actually tell by when they're all wearing the metal lames. Um that is because they use metal to conduct and indicate whether or not you've achieved a point.

Uh so for saber it's like from the waist up and you can slash. So that's the most similar to Zoro style. So actual like blade and you can like you know beat someone you can if I hit you with the side of my blade it still counts versus the other ones if you poke only poking counts. Okay.

So okay yeah so I was in the saber one so it's the fastest pace but um that is to say that a lot of these matches they might be three minutes long and so your entire career or your annual ranking depends on the a three minute match made of 15 points. Uh, and each of these points are like 10 seconds and you have breaks in between, but and and it it actually goes longer for that, probably like 10 minutes, but three minutes of play time and game time. And so I think it really teaches you a lot about pressure, about being able to restart that you cannot let even though you're down sudden like in a whim, you can suddenly go from go to like 10 two and if you're down at two, you have to be able to just reset and be like, let's treat this as 0. And I've seen people come back from that.

But it's just a lot of I think a lot of that mental roller coaster. I think there's a lot of reacting to your opponent. Uh a lot of recognizing that like again this is not also just your mental you fighting your own brain. You are also fighting a very smart person at the other side of it who is also actively reacting to you.

And uh yeah it I I love this sport. I feel like it surprisingly gave me a very fast reaction time. So that's been fun. But also, I think it's taught me a lot about working under pressure.

It's taught me a lot about fighting battles with an an opponent in a literal and figurative sense. Um, and then I think to the uh thing that I brought up earlier around just being around Olympians, I loved actually being in a room where I was not the best. " And I am not the best at this thing. But I think it's always I've loved actually if anything being the dumbest or being not the best at something in the room because it just means that there's so much ceiling of opportunity that you can take on and get excited about.

" So, um, I've loved that about fencing. I love that today where I'm in rooms with people who are so much smarter than me. But I I I actually want that and I want to be challenged because at this age like if I am the smartest in the room that probably is saying something about the rooms that I'm in. Oh, that's really that's really good advice.

And so for fencing like what if two people hit at the same like time? Who gets the point? How do you determine who gets? It's different for every blade or weapon.

So for foil and saber there's something called right of way. So, I won't go into that because it's very complicated, but basically it's whoever initiates an attack. And so, you're constantly you're not only trying to block someone, you're constantly tracking in your head like do I have right away, do I not? And it switches blade to blade.

And then EPA, it's just uh whoever hits. So, if two people hit at the same time, both get a point. Okay. The does the referee decide who own like the attack?

Yes. Yeah. So there's also that I think that's another thing is it is a highly subjective sport where you will there are so many you know C ref cam and replays and even when you do have replays there will be a lot of argument and debate over who deserve that point and there's almost like a way to spin it in any direction. I think the that has been a actually quite helpful in that a lot of times if you watch a fencing match people will scream a lot.

Uh and the reason for that is not yes people are very passionate they're excited but it's also because you're like it's almost performance you're you're convincing the ref that you have won the point and you're like I won and it's an interesting dynamic because I I I was like okay I am fencing I'm simultaneously like actually just trying to get a point but then right after I have to perform to like indicate that that was so clearly my point there's no way that and and so actually like the screaming and the the performance is actually part of the game as well. Um, but I think it just speaks to it. Early on as a kid, I think I learned a lot that performance is actually quite important. Maybe that plays in a narrative thing.

I guess again going full circle but performance is all part of it but also that many points can be unfair and that even if someone dictates an and unfair and doesn't give you a point that's rightfully yours if you let that ruin the whole match then then that that is something you just have to work through and so I you know there are many points I lost or many g matches I lost purely because I was actually had a head start and I thought that a point was mine, but it got it was it was awarded to my opponent and I was like, it's so unfair and you just start spiraling and then you lose the whole thing. And so, yeah, I I think it not that I've mastered this by any means, but it taught me a lot about being able to reset and recognizing that even if you are un dealt unfair cards and an unfair hand, that it is still on you to recalibrate and and get to the outcome that you want to get to. Yeah. comparing this to like the AI space.

So we have the the two people um for the AI so we have like the optimists and then we have the the skeptics. And so for the optimists they're about the breakthroughs like the products and the skeptics their hits are like the slop, the layoff, the hype. So both sides like they are they both keep touching but the public is like the referee and it only gives a point to whichever side owns the attack. So Claire, who has the right away in the AI story right now?

I think right now there just by a volume and maybe this speaks to yeah there is value in reaching the mainstream. Um, yeah, I think by volume, the side that is more skeptic, not necessarily winning, but I think there's more traction in a lot of their takes and those narratives are traveling further. And I think it's important for people in our state, like I would I think it would be silly for us in the optimist world to view those as, you know, we just got to ignore them. it's it's they're they don't understand this is not they're they're not educated enough on the technology to to have these concerns.

But I think if anything then that's like maybe it's on us as optimists to do a better job of communicating our ideas and sharing our excitement in a way that is accessible. Um, and so I wouldn't say like anyone's winning or losing, but I would say when it comes to volume, my honest assessment is the amount of people I'm seeing who are not that excited about AI, I understand where they're coming from and and you see it in a lot of numbers, right? and the ways that data centers are becoming the number one bipartisan issue and the ways that I think there was some crazy stat that people hated AI more than Jeffrey Epstein. It was just something crazy like that.

And so I think when you are seeing those things like it's natural to be like oh that's just you know crazy phenomenon it will pass. But I think it's important that we as a community and as people who are excited about ushering this technology forward that we acknowledge those concerns and subsequently do a better job of folding people in and bringing them to the table too. Awesome Claire. So final question is there a question you prepared an answer I don't know actually.

Yeah. I mean, you've been a fantastic interviewer, so you asked me so many questions. Uh, and I I think, yeah, I don't know. I I could yap endlessly about this stuff.

It's why I started my social account was because I thought there were things that I wanted to yap about. And at when I first started, I honestly was like, it'll reach maybe in my dreams 20,000 people. It's more. Yeah.

And it's it's just like I feel like, oh my gosh, it's insane to me that so many people actually care about this stuff as much as I do. and and hopefully I can, you know, do them right and and continue to share helpful insights and and add value early, right? Do you try do you try to be early to like whenever there's a new thing like a new thing happening you want to be the one the first one to kind of talk about it maybe is that what you're sometimes I think I try to I I would say I try to do a balance like I never want to just post something for the sake of posting and you know I think there is some part of me that feels like I need to and and there's certainly that urge but I think I've always I I would never I I think I would never post anything that I don't feel like I came in with a prepared mind or have done research around. Um, so if it's just regurgitating headlines, I'm like, you don't need me to do that.

Okay. But I think if I do have a meaning, if I feel I can add something meaningful to the discussion or help demystify some of why something is happening or break down what a phen like all the trend lines behind a phenomenon, then I'll I'll lean in there. And sometimes I am early to the headline, but sometimes, you know, I'll take two or three days to gather my thoughts and post. Then what's the next video?

Are you working on one right now? Yes. Uh there given the Stripe Open router Yeah. acquisition.

Uh just again play hopefully being able to demystify what open router is. I think that's one of the things I've realized is there are so many things that I dayto-day take for granted. I'm like everybody knows about this just because I'm chronically online. I'm absorbing all these things but recognizing that oh there are basic there are really important players in this ecosystem.

Uh, and being able to just break them down in easy to understand ways is really helpful for people. So, um, yeah, I have a video hopefully just very simple. It's it's nothing, you know, comprehensive. It's not groundbreaking, but just making sense of like what is this tool?

Why does it matter? I think a lot of times where I've gotten a lot of like personal happiness is seeing that aha moment for people and and so being able to explain news like acquisitions or fundraises or new technologies, those have been I feel like I've been able to see a lot of those aha moments come out of that. That's awesome, Claire. Well, thank you so much.